Rewind Time: The Epic 1987 NCAA Championship and a Preview of Bird & Magic’s Unforgettable Journey

Get ready for a time-warp back to the legendary 1987 NCAA championship game between Indiana and Syracuse, where we dissect the strategies, the defining moments, and the players who made history. Promise us one thing; you'll be on the edge of your seat when we unfold the drama of the final play that saw Indiana emerge as the champions and the lasting legacy it etched for Coach Bob Knight. 

After we conclude our discussion of the 1987 Championship we have author Randy Mills on board discussing the unique stories behind Larry Bird's high school playing days and that unforgettable winning shot that sealed the deal for Indiana. 

In the world of basketball, a player's story is not just about the game, it's a tapestry of choices, challenges, determination, and the will to succeed. We journey through Larry Bird's high school days, his decision to stay in college basketball, his recovery from a broken ankle, and the headlines his performance dominated. We've got exclusive snippets from two reporters who captured the essence of Indiana high school basketball at the time, making this episode a true tribute to Bird's journey.

Breathe in the nostalgia as we analyze the inaccuracies and narratives in basketball, the ones that sometimes paint a different picture from reality. But it's not all serious; we have some heartwarming stories of fans sharing unexpected moments with Larry Bird; one such story of a little boy at the concessions stand will have you chuckling. We're wrapping this up with an enticing trailer for Season 2 of Iconic Seasons, featuring the 1979 match-up between March and Magic. Trust us; it's a season you won't want to miss. As always, we appreciate your ratings and reviews.

Chapters

• 0:00 Iconic Seasons
• 11:19 Indiana's Heroic NCAA Championship Victory
• 17:45 Bird's High School and Final Four
• 31:54 Inaccuracies and Memories in Basketball Narratives
• 41:23 Larry Bird's High School Basketball Journey
• 52:57 Larry Bird's Basketball Journey and Moments

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Talk about that 1987 file. You talk about iconic moments. Scored 23 points in the championship against Syracuse, 7 for 10 from a 3-point range. Was that kind of an out-of-body experience? Wasn't all that a year. 

Speaker 2: 0:20

Welcome to episode 10 of Iconic Seasons 1987, the year that saw one of the most iconic match-ups in NCAA basketball history. On today's episode, we're going to be wrapping up our series and giving you a taste of season 2. With the championship trophy and rings back in Bloomington, we're talking legacy and history for IU. We then shift to an interview and trailer for season 2 of Iconic Seasons. This upcoming season centers on 1979, the year March went mad magic versus burn. If you've made it this far, you're a fan of basketball. You won't want to miss our conclusion. If you've enjoyed our series and haven't done so yet, leave us a rating and or review. This is episode 10 of Iconic Seasons 1987. What are your thoughts just about this whole process, going through this Final Four and thinking about it? 

Speaker 3: 1:16

I think that I gained some appreciation for how the game changed, when it changed and understanding why it did. I mean, I didn't know a whole lot about the 4-3 point shot. I didn't really do a whole lot of research. After watching some of the early games before the trip and stuff like that before the 3-point line and seeing, I don't know if I would have been able to be a basketball player. I'll be honest, because it would have been so hard, the excitement of just passing you would have been a different basketball player yeah. I mean I'm just saying the excitement. When I grew up, it was the excitement. I was a huge Pacer fan. So Reggie shooting threes, I'd go outside and envision that. Could you imagine just wanting to go outside and shoot and jump shots, hoping that you got a jump shot, the excitement of the game just changed the whole game. Then seeing Syracuse and seeing how Bayhunt allowed them to be them, douglas behind the fake, behind the back pass, that probably. I don't know if Bob Knight would have let that fly At that moment. He better make sure he makes that layup, then he's probably getting yelled at also. You know what I mean? Because there's no showboating in basketball. Just shoot the damn layup. Yeah, because it was a different kind of airbag them. They didn't really like Flashy. Flashy was for the threes. 

Speaker 2: 2:31

He was letting go a little bit at this, you know, letting them run. Well, what the game goes? 

Speaker 3: 2:36

with the yeah, he definitely. You can tell there was a change in Bob Knight over the course of this run. They did here. 

Speaker 2: 2:45

Although if you listen to the Sean Kemp recruiting story, you might argue otherwise. 

Speaker 3: 2:50

I just listened to it. That's pretty First thing, okay, how? 

Speaker 4: 2:52

much money you get man. 

Speaker 2: 2:53

Yeah, we were recruiting. 

Speaker 4: 2:57

It was a year after we won it all. We were recruiting Sean Kemp and Chris Mills. Wow, okay, so we're recruiting those guys. They come in and Mills is from California, so Garrett and I, both from California, we take him out. Callaway and Smart, take Kemp out. This is on Saturday. We all run around having a time Sunday. We come back and they're gone. Now we got practice at like 530 on Sunday and coach walks in and says all right, everybody, have a good time this week. I can get a football game. We do. We have these guys in. Yeah, that's great. All right, where are we with Kemp and Mills? And it's dead silent, dead silent. Hey, where the hell are we with Mills and Kemp? There are the two best players in the country. We need these guys. Silent, ricky, god damn it. Where are we with Kemp and Mills? And he said coach, they're not coming. What do you mean? They're not coming? He goes coach, they want money and they want a car. Because Kemp and these guys were asked well, where's your ride, ricky? Where's your ride? Hey, man, I ain't coming unless I have a ride. And when Ricky says well, coach, they need, they're wanting money and they want a car, night goes just like this. Well, fuck them, they can go to Kentucky, they try, try, try. 

Speaker 3: 4:22

We all knew about that stuff way before. I mean, that's to be honest, like, and that's what killed IU for years, if they weren't willing to give people money. 

Speaker 2: 4:30

Yeah. 

Speaker 3: 4:32

I mean the NCAA, I mean they just I'm not going to get into that. Yeah, that's a different story. That's a different podcast. What did you learn from this? 

Speaker 2: 4:40

So my biggest takeaway is thinking more about the three point line, because I enjoyed these games so much and I enjoyed that there was an ability to think about playing the game in a different way. It seems so universal the way you have to play now If you can't do shoot, even though now there's a little baby breaking into the ice in the NBA, where there's a little like yo kitchen there, where he's not not just shooting three, just shooting threes to rant Booker. You know their, their team is a little like maybe not, maybe not, but I just think that the the fun I had watching the three point team and Providence lose to Syracuse with the big guys and then IU, even though the you know the hits all these threes, they win and then they hit threes in the championship game. So you kind of had it all, which I really enjoyed. And then I think the coaching personalities really stood out. There are still great coaches today and still great coaching personalities, but none that seemed bigger than that seemed bigger than the game. Callaway's improvement. 

Speaker 7: 5:42

Um, I had a lot to do with his being benched when we played Ohio State. Then they you can talk about all the motivational speeches and phrases and devices in the world, but the greatest motivator of all is your ass on the bench. There is no better motivator. Ass meets bench, bench retains ass. Ass transmits signal to brain, brain transmits signal to body. Body gets ass off bench and plays better. I mean, it's a hell of a sequence of things that takes place. Well, it might be for you guys. 

Speaker 2: 6:31

I think Shire will probably be a good coach at Duke. I love Woody at IU, but they don't seem to hold the zeitgeist the way that these coaches did. Even Bettina, who's so young at this point obviously, since he's still coaching just has a grasp over the game and a command of the sideline and the cameras. The way that they find them is just so different than the coaches now. They still try to do that and drum it up, but it just doesn't click as much when they show the coaches now I'm never really wanting to know more about them. I guess I'm just kind of like oh yeah, that's so-and-so's coach. 

Speaker 3: 7:08

I felt like these coaches back then. We did a thing a while back about five-star at the camp or whatever. All these big coaches going there and learning from each other. I just doubt that that really. I mean they might text somebody or something, but they don't get that experience they talked about after the camps. They would go and they would talk strategy and go have a couple beers or whatever. It was almost like it was a-it was like a fraternity. 

Speaker 2: 7:32

A fraternity of coaches back then. 

Speaker 3: 7:34

You know what I mean. I don't think that's the same case. Shire doesn't have the same history as these guys do. Not saying anything bad about him, I'm just saying Woody has a little bit, just because-. 

Speaker 2: 7:43

Well, the histories seem more siloed Woody's histories with IU, Shire's histories with Duke. It's a vertical rather than horizontal, where they would go to a place and intermingle. The Duke guys stick with the Duke guys. The IU guys stick with the IU guys. These programs have grown into their own little corporations. It's not like the NCAA together. It's now Duke's its own brand, its own thing. So I think that's something that's changed so much. That's why the Jumbotron would not be behind the players, because you've got 12 people working on the Jumbotron alone. 

Speaker 3: 8:16

And the rims would all be the same. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: 8:19

They wouldn't switch for harder rims for the final four. Hey, let's get those hard rims out. We had those in the back room. We haven't tried those out this year. 

Speaker 3: 8:28

I guess. One other takeaway I got was I've never seen somebody pass the ball get fouled and the guy score and that guy get two free throws. I've never seen that either, so that's something that I was blown away by too. 

Speaker 2: 8:42

On the flip side. I will say I think we hit on this in both things with Bill Walton that the announcers today do help a lot. They bring a ton of excitement to the game and I think that is a cool evolution. The camaraderie and the fanfare around the final four and the tournament is so much fun. Now they have really figured out how to maximize that. I mean it is a blast every year. The announcers are having fun and bringing excitement to every play. You know guys like Steph Curry I don't know if they really happened in 1987, because they don't make it all the way to the final four. They wouldn't make it into the ether. It almost seems like he won a national championship even though he never got close. 

Speaker 3: 9:21

Well, they've really learned how to maximize stories or maximize just that. Basketball is a game, but for them it's about the entertainment. I feel like back. You know, listening to these it was more. The broadcasters were more about information. They've studied the information. 

Speaker 2: 9:43

For the Walter Cronkite right. 

Speaker 3: 9:44

And they're just going through the motions of what they believe. There wasn't supposed to be any outlandish rants or anything. It was supposed to be professional. It's a job that you take very seriously and get the stats and that's how you were pictured. If you knew the stats, you gave good information, you were a great broadcaster. That's how, in this generation, that's what it was, besides the entertainment part of it, right? 

Speaker 2: 10:08

We'll have to see. I'll cut it in there. There's a great clip of Knight talking to Billy Packard after the game and he tells Billy that it was a thinking man's game and Knight goes. Well then you understood it, just like those breaks. That is so. He's so far ahead of his time. His comedic approach to the game and willingness to be more honest than most people on the planet at the time definitely made him stand out as well. 

Speaker 3: 10:35

Yeah, his willingness to not care, not care, yeah. I'm gonna be, me and if you don't like it, I don't really give a blank break, but even today it still seems startling to watch. 

Speaker 5: 10:48

Yeah, I'm gonna be able to find. How are you, adam Sandler, still here, indiana University, having a beautiful time? Soon coming up as the cutest co-ed, but before that, I'm trying out for the Hoosiers right now, indiana Hoosiers, I'm having a good time. A few friends of mine are here. They're okay at ball. You got Dean, Keith and Steve here. Nice guys, I'm gonna show you, fellas, what I can really do. I'm pretty good. Okay, here we go. Let's see it. He's a wheel-op. He's a wheel-op. I can jam. I can jam Me too. 

Speaker 7: 11:19

Coleman throws the ball to Cycly, he damn near beats the ball to Cycly. So now we've got a double team on Cycly. You would have won that game and this would be hard for Keith to do. But you would have won the game if Coleman would have stayed out of bounds. But but he steps in bounds, and Keith Smart. Now Keith Smart does two things that were more important than the shot he made, and this is one. This may be the VISTA. So now Cycly has the ball. He's doubled up. Coleman comes in, cycly throws it to Coleman. Keith is out here on the floor but right in front of our bench, and on the pass to Coleman, keith tries, damn near gets the ball but doesn't quite get it and he grabs Coleman's arms and spins him around and they call foul on Keith. That was the thing that cost you the game. 

Speaker 4: 12:25

You knew Coleman was not a clutch free throw shooter. You knew that he just wasn't a good free throw shooter. 

Speaker 7: 12:30

He just wasn't a good free throw shooter. He had a very low percentage. He was the best guy to foul. But I've always been and missed two. Huh, and missed two. He missed two. Yeah, missed both of them. You were just hoping he missed one, digging the odds. No, no, I don't pray for little things. I said God, help that son of a bitch, miss both of them. Don't bother the almighty with chicken shit stuff. Make it something that's really going to be worthwhile Ever nervous you're going to lose that game. 

Speaker 4: 12:59

You're playing against three guys that end up being free. Pretty good throws. You didn't have one throw on your team. Well, that's what kills me, man. 

Speaker 7: 13:09

But then what happens now is he misses the two free throws. And we had another situation where another great play a kid named Darrell Thomas is under the bucket and he gets the ball. Now there's probably I don't know maybe 12, 14 seconds left. He gets the ball. And now Cyclean Coleman having Mumbrelin and I would be willing to bet that this is the only player that was ever smart enough to do this. 

Speaker 9: 13:45

Instead of going up and getting it blocked, which ends the game, he gives a little fake, has some room and throws the ball out to Smartle Kid goes through in the bedroom shooting trash can, in the backyard shooting a hoop, I'm taking a shot to win it, and I've always had a vision of doing something like that. I started having this dream vision my freshman year, where I was a part of a team and I was not involved in the action, but at the end of the dream I was in the middle of all the celebration. It was a huge arena, whereas this huge arena with me. I had no idea and that morning I woke up, probably around very early four o'clock in the morning, couldn't sleep, and it was clear. So, as the game moved on, now Syracuse started to make their run and Coach Knight came up to me and said are you ready to play? And I said yeah. He said well, I'll give you a couple of minutes and if you have nothing in a couple of minutes, I'm taking you out of the game. Things started to work for me. It started to open up and I started to make plays for myself and also for my teammates. Then you move into this environment that I love and get into. You get into the zone. You don't hear anything else going around. He trusted us. Coach Knight trusted us. I was like no, we can't go out, we're going to find the right situation for that moment. So I went inside and there were Thomas, and he didn't have anything as a senior he could have forced it up there, and he passed it back out to me, and then I had to make a play, all goes in, and that's why he had to expose us who's White Oak. 

Speaker 7: 15:17

Because Smart wasn't the first option, obviously. Or was it not like that? Well, it was whoever we could. Alfred was the first option, right, but they really defended him. We couldn't get him to ball and in all the 40 years that I coached, that's the smartest play I ever saw. When Daryl Thomas shot, faked he'd get a little room. He spun through the ball to Smart about 15 feet away. He hit the decision Before the game. Obviously you weren't favored in this game. 

Speaker 4: 15:49

Circusless. Were you all confident? Or were you saying, wow, we're going to have to play a great game? 

Speaker 7: 15:54

No, I always thought we could win. We didn't always win, but I always thought we could. If you were to ask Bayhime after the game was over, I heard him say this later. I said that's a hard loss. I said I know that. I said but you'll win this. That's pretty nice of me. 

Speaker 4: 16:15

I know you'd send him some flowers and thank him for the gift. No, no. 

Speaker 7: 16:20

Sometime later. What's his name? He was coaching at Kansas, Were you Williams? Yeah, he's coaching at Kansas. 

Speaker 6: 16:30

And Circus wins. 

Speaker 7: 16:31

Yeah, it was that tough game I was a tough game. And things could have easily gone the other way, like in this game you're talking and so Circus wins, and Williams had come close with his team a couple of times and Bayhime told him after the game was over, because Williams told me this. He said when Indiana beat us and when we had a really good team, he said Coach Knight told me to hang in. He said you'll win this. And he said to Williams he said so I'm telling you what he told me. 

Speaker 10: 17:05

This is a little bit worse, probably because there's a little bit more importance involved in this game than any other game, but it doesn't feel good. 

Speaker 1: 17:15

Down here with Coach Bob Knight and his hero Keith Smart. Bob, your reaction now to a third championship for you. 

Speaker 10: 17:22

It was so great. To me as a coach it doesn't mean anything, brent, and I mean that from this standpoint. Sure, I'm tickled, but for these kids to come back like they did and to hang in the game the way they did, and for these last two years, my first thought is what these kids have done, and especially what this kid right here has done. 

Speaker 1: 17:41

How about the young man, keith Smart, who spent time with your fans who came in? Keith, tell us about the winning field goal. Well, I don't know about the winning field goal. I just know that we had some time on the clock. The guy we've been together for so long that we was going to be all right. The shot just came coming out of there when they hit it. Long, long, hard road for you. I don't know if you were going to be the man to take that last shot, but Keith standing there did it for you. Keith's standing all year when they've jumped him in Guarding me tight. He's always opened up things and he's been great to play with. This year. This is all worth it. All worth it. Yeah, still cheers. What does it feel like coming all the way from Studeu College in one year? 

Speaker 11: 18:21

and a little season again. 

Speaker 9: 18:22

Nothing can match the way I feel right now. We've been together for so long and I'm going to miss this guy right here, and then I'll rest and see you. 

Speaker 1: 18:30

Super job for RIEO. Let's get it All right. Here is the winning shot. We'll take another look at it. Darrell Thomas, your thoughts about that winning field goal? Well, it was designated for Steve, of course, but these are balls. We were moving the ball around and then they threw it into me. I looked and turned cold and shot fake. They didn't move. So I saw Keith on the behind me so I kicked it out to him and bucked it. It was bucking. No, it was good. Joe Hillman, how did you view the play? 

Speaker 10: 19:00

I just saw the same thing as Darrell saw. He kicked it in the post. It was meant to go to Steve. He kicked it back out to Keith. Keith went to the baseline and shot it. I went right to the bucket for a board or anything and it went straight down and that was it. 

Speaker 6: 19:14

We hope that you've enjoyed our breakdown of the 1987 Final Four. We've covered the players, the coaches and the stories that made the tournament so iconic. Now we're excited to announce that we're working on Season 2 of the podcast. We'll be taking a deep dive into the 1979 season, the year March 1st went mad. The 1979 season featured one of the most iconic rivalries in NCAA history Larry Bird versus Magic Johnson. If you want to make sure that Season 2 happens, please tell a friend to listen to Season 1 and stay tuned to hear the trailer for Season 2. We also have a special interview coming your way today. We're talking to Randy Mills, who's writing a book about Larry Bird's high school playing days in French lick and his first steps towards Indiana State and the iconic 1979 championship game. So sit back, relax and enjoy this special interview, and don't forget to tell a friend about the podcast getting set here for what promises to be one tremendous championship game for the national intercollegiate basketball title. 

Speaker 11: 20:59

I don't know what more you could ask. You know we started this season what six months ago. If you'd have tapped it right then on two of the storybook stories that could have come out of the season, one would have had to be Larry Bird. Here was a guy who could have fasted up the season of college basketball and moved on to the pro, but instead he stuck around for an ideal, an ideal that belonged to Faraheud Indiana, belongs to Indiana State, and now, after 33 games, he has, as unlikely as it seems, taken that team will win one game of the championship. Conversely, look at it this way, there is Irvin Johnson, a young man who many say this will be his last college game, that he will not be able to resist the lure of the pro, and that Irvin Johnson will indeed move on to pro basketball. That still remains to be seen, but you've got to wonder. We are tonight. 

Speaker 2: 21:53

The culmination of that season was the matchup between Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, whose humble beginnings are the bedrock of what made the rivalry and that season so memorable. The night before the game, the producers of NBC Sports wanted to air a spot about Indiana State coach Bob King, who had to step aside. At the beginning of the season, don O'Mire, a bombastic man, said what about Magic and Bird, larry? And Magic delivered as they always have. 

Speaker 10: 22:34

A lot of people were surprised yesterday, larry, when you mentioned you played ball with Magic Johnson in the World Invitational Tournament. Well, you know, I mean Magic played together in that, in that game, and you know it's funny because Magic's such a great passer, but he wouldn't give me the ball, you know. 

Speaker 1: 22:49

I need the ball. Well, I hope you don't think I'm gonna pass the tour tonight either, but I thought I'll pass in the ball. Maybe he forgot it. 

Speaker 2: 23:13

There's still one measure that makes this game undeniably iconic 24.1 that's the rating for the number of televisions tuned in to watch the game a quarter of all television sets in America. It remains the highest rating for any basketball game, college or pro, in the history of the sport. This story could have any number of starting points, but it's impossible not to tell the story of a kid from French lick Indiana and another Midwest kid from Lansing Michigan. Our chosen start is on location, in Southern Indiana. It begins in 1974 in French lick Indiana, where Larry Bird's long and winding road to the championship game had its origins. So welcome to the podcast, randy. 

Speaker 8: 24:14

Yeah, I'm excited to be here in basketball. That I didn't think much of till a few years ago when I wrote the memoirs, and that's when I got interested in. Hey, there's some other stories out here and we can segue in now to when I started teaching at Legody, of all places. 

Speaker 2: 24:30

Yeah, you know I hear a lot of similarities to, to we're getting into Larry's story, but you hit on. You know basketball and your military history background. That's a popular thing in basketball and sports in general to use those military terms, to to have that structure, especially in Indiana, the sort of types of coaches that they're mindset. 

Speaker 8: 24:49

The discipline. 

Speaker 2: 24:51

Yes. 

Speaker 8: 24:52

The good, the good, the good sergeant, not the drill sergeant, but probably what they call the top sergeant in combat. 

Speaker 2: 24:58

Yes. 

Speaker 8: 24:58

That knows more than the officers. You know, right, the one that's going to get you out there alive. Yeah, the mess. And you know. And there there's the interesting thing. When I put started putting things on Facebook about my high school stuff was all the hits I got and all the the comments I got and all the different sites I found about basketball, more so in Indiana than any other place. What am I going to write about next? Yeah. So I have been doing some work on outlaw gangs of Indiana and then I done that blog on Larry Bird, as if by magic, and I saw I'm getting a lot more hits on this. I'm getting Okay, that'll be my next book, so that's me into the book thing. But there was, if you notice, if you remember, in that blog, there were all these, these personal contacts, which I call webs. Life has all these webs of connection that we don't realize and then we start looking at things and we see, see, wow, this, this led to this, or these people were right on the edge with me, and now we're meeting again and we're sharing the same stories and the same. We're seeing the same things. We don't always hear the same stories because we we see things differently. And that's been really an interesting part of my writing here about Larry Bird's high school days, the stories that Larry told, the stories that others told, the stories I heard later that people told my, my recollections of seeing Larry play against Legoti. It's been fascinating, especially for a writer, to somehow bring all that together and put it into a story that people want to read. 

Speaker 2: 26:35

Yeah, this is like your seven degrees of Kevin Bacon, right, that somehow related back. That's amazing. So where did you start with a project like this? Because I'm always fascinated. You get the idea from your own experiences, and your own experiences kind of line up a little bit with Larry's, the small high school. You know even the relationship with your father and him coming from the war. I mean that's, that's a fascinating starting point. 

Speaker 8: 26:59

Yeah, the war. Yeah too, because his father issues from the war I had there was right in front of me. And now you just mentioned that, boom. Yeah. So I've written 10 books, but this is my 10th book and I wouldn't just dozens and dozens and dozens of professional articles. And one of the things that I realized in looking back at those stories two or three years ago after I finished them is they're all autobiographical. They're all about something that meant something to me personally that I didn't realize it at the time. I thought, oh, this is just an interesting story. And then I look back and I realized, you know, I'm working out my own, my own stuff here. Well, an almost perfect season about my dad and I. That's. That's about my dad, not I use basketball as an excuse to get at something that I, that I. My dad died in 78 in the blizzard. He worked for the Illinois Department of Transportation. We didn't get to finish some of the conversations that I wanted to get with him and the things I wanted to ask him. So that was a way to go back and get some healing there With Larry. It's about basketball again. So I move to Jasper. I live in Jasper, my first marriage, my first wife's teaching in Jasper. I'm teaching at Legodium. I'm driving there. I'm in a carpool with Lee Kavanaugh. You know Lee who is really the secret behind Jack Butcher's success if he answers me as an eighth grade coach. But we're driving up there and so my dad wanted me to stay in Illinois and and teach. He wanted me to play basketball there and I didn't do that. He wanted me to stay in Illinois teaching, so I left. So when he came to visit me at Jasper, I took him up to Legodium to show him where I was going to be teaching, and this was my first time in the building to myself. So we walk in there and I don't know if you've been in that for you, but yeah yeah, totally case. And so we're just doing and on, because dads like me was like he knew all the stories of Southern Illinois basketball. In fact he taught me I knew all about the 40s and the 50s and the 60s because you know I would listen to him and he'd take me to ball games. This is all in my book, an almost perfect season. So we're in and on and there are a couple of students there and my dad says you guys are pretty good arch, and one of them actually was Wayne Flick. You know that was Larry Nemesis at that iconic ball game when Legody beat Jasper. Anyway, he was talking to Wayne Flick and that was the first time I met Wayne. Wayne, by the way, pops up all over my book. I didn't see that coming. He's just there, even in grade school against Larry. He was just such a Nemesis. You know Larry got kicked off the team his eighth grade year, toward the end of it, because he got mad, he didn't like losing and he get really frustrated. So I wonder I thought, what game was it that did that? I got a hold of the score books and there it is against Legody, wayne Flick. Wayne Flick scored 16 points and Larry Bird fouls out with 10. 

Speaker 2: 30:01

Oh, wow, amazing. I mean it's. You need those types of people, though. I mean you mentioned that too in the way that you were measuring yourself growing up, and those moments where you're like, oh, here's one you know hurdle to jump over, and it's like setting, setting those up in front of you, that where's the next one, and to have that guy who's reaching for those same heights can be really important as well. 

Speaker 8: 30:24

But here's the web again. You know, I didn't see Wayne coming. Wayne's all through it and in fact I have an epilogue in the book about, I think, a very moving piece about bringing it all together. We go up there and my dad's he's suddenly a little bit better about me going over there because he sees all that tradition. Of course I don't know, I don't understand what it means to teach at Legody. So the season starts and they're playing, legody's playing. Oh, I should back up a little bit. I first met Larry Bird when I knew him as Mark Bird's brother, because Larry, mark and I went to Oakland City College. Oh, okay, all right and Larry came to a couple of games and I saw him and was aware of him because he looked like Mark. I thought, gee, he looks like Mark, isn't that funny? It's all turned around now. 

Speaker 2: 31:11

It is stunning too, because you've got a picture, and I'll add some of these pictures into Mark looks. I mean it could be twins, almost besides, that's all they are. 

Speaker 8: 31:21

And one of the things I do and I'll get to this later that it's important. So I start writing about Larry Bird and I realize, wow, look at all these things that influence Larry, that's not covered. Mark's tremendous impact on Larry, and I saw I have a whole chapter on that alone, plus before and after when Mark's in Larry's life, and so we'll talk maybe perhaps a little bit more about those kinds of things. So I knew Larry from that. He just looked like a shy kid. He would look down, he wouldn't look at you because he was so shy. And so now go up a couple of years and Lee Kavanaugh says hey, come with me, we're going to go to Spanx Valley Valley's playing legody. It'll probably be the conference championship. So it's like three o'clock. You know, we just got back from from a place. Come on, get in the car, we're going. I said why? I said we won't get a seat the way it is. There were. It was estimated that there were 4,000 people in a gym that held only 700. And they were. They were three deep on the floor, out, out to the floor, to the edge of the, and they couldn't go down the aisles. They were sitting in the aisles and they were three deep up around the top like a rock concert. Yeah, yes, yes, and so that's how that game started. And so that was another iconic moment watching Larry play and I can touch on this now, but I was going to mention this more in line with with the things that I came across in writing and. But in that particular game, the stories about that game are in every book about Larry Bird and it's iconic. And Larry always said that's the game he wished he'd had back. And after they lost he told everybody just don't worry about it, we'll get him in the regional, because they figured they would meet him in the regional. Everybody thought they'd meet him in the regional. Even when the regional started they thought they would be in the final game together. That's another story. Yeah, for both teams. But there are in that classic story and you may be familiar with this it is said that Larry, at a tip you know they used to after a jump ball, they would jump ball there underneath the goal, there around the free throw line that Larry got a tip and turned and scored, got mixed up and scored in the Ligoti basket and those points made the difference in the game. Oh, wow, well, that's not true. 

Speaker 2: 33:48

That's good, set the record straight. 

Speaker 8: 33:54

Yeah, set the record straight. And you got to be careful with this, because the Larry Bird narratives, all these stories are set in concrete. And those high school stories were originally written in the first book that came out in 1982 by Lynn Corn and he was a colleague of mine at Oakland City College another web, another connection and he talked about writing about this when we, when I started teaching there. After that, the next year, after the book came out, but he chronicled all these things and all the other books pretty much repeat what he said. So he got it wrong and then everybody else got it wrong. So where did how do I know it's wrong because good old Jerry Burge. Jerry Burge is like Wayne flick in my book, okay, and he pops in there and becomes a main character and you know, let's talk a little bit about the newspapers and the sports writers of the 50s, 60s and 70s, which I consider to be a golden age of Indiana and Midwest High School basketball. The papers had six to 12 pages of sports. 

Speaker 2: 35:03

Yeah. 

Speaker 8: 35:04

And have you ever picked up an old paper? I mean, it's as tall as you are. 

Speaker 2: 35:07

Right, it's wild. 

Speaker 8: 35:10

It's big and it's and it's and it's wide, and it's and it's tall. So Jerry Burge was sports writer there at the Jasper Herald and I read his account and he made that comment. He said Larry was called for walking and when he scored and the basket did not count. But then he said he mentioned the turning points and he and this is not mentioned in all the other narratives, but Jerry nailed this so he ended up with a big turn of the game happened in the third quarter when Mike Maddingly knocked Larry down and kind of took the wind out and kind of knocked them out and had to call an extra time out. 

Speaker 2: 35:50

Wow, okay, so they're down one, then down a time. 

Speaker 8: 35:55

Well, they don't have any at the end of the game. Remember what? Happened yeah score and win and Beezer called the time out. And that's in all the books that Beezer screwed up. Wow, you know, and that's the way Larry tells it too. 

Speaker 2: 36:08

I was going to say I wonder if Larry even remembers it like that, because sometimes our own memories are so faulty that if you read an account of yourself enough times you can kind of internalize it. We're going to talk about that too. 

Speaker 8: 36:23

Another thing because the, the, the, the narrative has a number of those kinds of things. So the another thing about that game that gets missed a little bit courier writer picked up on because that place was just packed with college coaches and sportswriters Was that the unsung hero of the game wasn't Billy Butcher who outscored Larry 36 to 30, I think was Wayne flick guarding Larry underneath the basket. That's, the sportswriter caught that that Larry had to go out. He couldn't because Larry was used to scoring in and out. Now he could only score out and I scored a lot of points but he didn't score it and the Louisville Courier Guide said that probably made the difference there Interesting. Then at the end of the game of course they had a chance to win it and Beezer got the ball and he couldn't throw it in, so he just called the time out and they didn't have it and that was that. Now the coach took the blame for that, gary Holland, because he said you know, I should have known that he wouldn't know and I shouldn't know that we lost that extra time out there. But again, you got. You got Jerry Burge there and I use I really write Jerry because he's so detailed and beautiful writing. It's just like and I have a lot of this in the book because this is real time this is like going back in the time machine when you read the things that I use in there. You're there with them and that's what they're seeing, and that's what they're writing about, and it's probably pretty damn. 

Speaker 2: 37:44

That's how they would write too. That's the narrative way, rather than, you know, kind of the Stephen A Smith style, giving you their opinion or take on it. They try to capture the moment of it. 

Speaker 8: 37:56

Yes, and they're very. Some of them are very skilled with the words they use to put you there too, and so I got to talk to Jerry about a week before he passed away, and I'm so fortunate to connect with him because he shared so many, so many stories, and those he's going to be in the book. In fact, the dedication is to him and all the sports writers that we can go back to and look at it, would you? 

Speaker 2: 38:20

like another story about that. Yeah, keep going. I love that, I'll keep. I'll put that picture in there too. You've got a photo of my. I think it is from that game where you're pushing and the caption and it is pushing Larry Bird out and again we think of him as this, like long range shooter. But I'm sure in high school you know you're spending some time at six nine near the basket and so putting anybody out of their comfort zone is going to be Well, he was he was. 

Speaker 8: 38:44

He was able to do that with most teams. But you got to remember. Here's another element, here too, and that's Jack Butcher, probably the greatest tactician of that day and maybe any day, when it came to how to win a basketball game. Because if he put his mind to it he could. He could do it, and it wasn't it. And it was exciting to watch that slow down basketball because you know, believe it or not, nobody's scoring and you're standing the whole damn time, you know, because they've only got a two point lead. Yeah, so you'd be sweating bullets, but anyway, another. That's another story. So here's a story that's in all the books and in Larry's book drive, and I'll tell you how Larry tells the story and what I found in the newspapers. And I want to back up and say this Aaron, when I did my memoirs and I started on it and I started making notes about what I remembered, and then I started looking with the papers, I was stunned. I would have bet my life, I would have bet my life that what I remembered was how it happened. And then in the papers I was about 50 percent wrong. But but here's the funny thing, it wasn't 50 percent about things I did really well. It was both ways. I was set wrong on the things I screwed up on. There were things I didn't remember I missed the papers made a big deal out of. So memory is falling. Yeah, not not completely, because the spirit of what you're talking about is there. So let's let's look at Larry's sophomore year. Well, let's let's back up to the eighth grade year. So he's an eighth grader he's. He's been kicked off the team toward the end of the season. According to the books, jim Jones Coach. Jim Jones has the assistant coach, gary Holland, who later is the head coach when Larry's a senior. Go to Larry's mom before Larry's freshman year and tell her look, larry's good, he's going to be one of our better players, but he's going to have to learn to control his temper. And apparently he did so. He played his freshman year, which he says in Drive. He didn't play very much and I've not been able to look at those school books. I did find some newspaper accounts and he was one of the one of the main scores, but maybe not the main score. And then his sophomore year. He was about six one and weighed about 135 pounds. Mark was in college then, so Larry got number 33. That was Mark, and there's another. There's another thing that nobody knows 33 is Mark Bird. 

Speaker 2: 41:18

Oh yeah, so he's got that from his brother he got it from his brother and another. 

Speaker 8: 41:23

Another thing and I'm going to get into this really quick because it's so interesting I've been, I've been helping a group find pictures of Larry For something they're they're going to do Well, it's the museum. And so I was looking through. I thought, okay, magic Johnson, I want to find some high school pictures of Magic Johnson and put them up there with Larry Bird. And the first thing I noticed when I started looking at those pictures do you know what? Magic Johnson's number was? 33. 33. Yeah, I thought, damn yeah here we go you know, the way of boo. We do, do, do, do do. Those two for sure, yeah, so you know what his number was Michigan State. I have to 33. 

Speaker 2: 42:06

33. So why didn't we? 

Speaker 8: 42:08

notice that. You know they're both 33s, even even in that game. You know that final game. There he is with 33. So anyway, there's this picture of Larry in the varsity, picture before the his sophomore year starts, and he's standing behind Jim Jones and he looks like a baby. Yeah, he's standing, just looks like a baby and has this big jersey on with 33. And that year the main player was Steve Land. Steve was a junior that year and he had been. He'd started since the sophomore year and he's going to end up breaking all the records. Marl Brutes records every record in the record book there. By the time he's a senior and they, of course, the year before they had won the Sexto, when Mark scored two free throws at the end of the game. Larry was at that game, by the way, and he said that had a big impact on his life because he wanted that too. Interesting. 

Speaker 2: 43:06

I bet those packed gyms yeah. 

Speaker 8: 43:09

And that was the first varsity game he went to. This is in my book. He didn't like to go. He never, he hadn't. Can you believe that Crazy he? wasn't interested in me. He was shy and he didn't like crowds, yeah. So so now he's seeing. After that he's saying, yeah, I want, I want that. How do you get that? So he's still not there. So he's playing junior varsity, his sophomore year, and hoping to be able to maybe dress by sectional time, and he breaks his ankle in the first game, junior varsity game, and so now he's not playing, he has the cast on. You probably know this story that you just shot around, found shots and things and had little kids shag for him. And so toward the end of the year he wanted to play junior varsity again and Holland, gary Holland, was concerned. He, you know, we don't want to screw up his ankle. So he said, if you can run the killer's sprints here you can play. So he ended up playing about, I think, three, three junior varsity games and he thought that was it. And then he found out he was going to dress for the varsity. It's not more year, so this is a big deal in Indiana, sure. So he's sitting on the bench. Never played varsity before. First game. It's a close game with West Washington. It's Nick, nip, nip and tuck, nip and tuck. And he hears his name being called and he thinks somebody back in the back row solid and it's coach getting the game. So Larry says in Drive in. In paraphrasing here. So I remember Larry says in Drive, I go in the game and I make a basket pandemonium. And I make another basket pandemonium, I'm passing, I'm getting rebounds. The next day the newspaper headline Larry Bird saves the day. So I'm reading that and I'm thinking I've got access now that all the yeah, I gotta see what they had to say. So, oh, I gotta find this. So look a look, look, look. Hmm. Hmm, there's a box. He may. He made two out of nine, one place had him one out of nine and one place had him two out of nine. Amazing, but he did score the two winning foul shots. 

Speaker 2: 45:15

Okay. 

Speaker 8: 45:16

So he got that right and I did find a headline in the courier journal that said land and bird propel Valley, so he's remembering stuff that happened. 

Speaker 2: 45:27

Right, and that's, and that's what you were saying. Like that, first time you see your name in the paper, you know that just capturing that snapshot. Doesn't matter what it says, as long as it's positive on some level. 

Speaker 8: 45:37

You're like oh yeah, how else do you? Sort of said that. Yeah how else would you remember that way Incredible? The other thing who was in and I really if after Jerry Burge, the main guy that I really went by on writing the law of the narratives and the caption these games was a guy named Harry Moore at the Peole Republican and he he owned the theater there in French leg two is from Orange County and he had a narrative. He was like Jerry, he had a really good narrative and he had a narrative that game and he said bird comes in and scores two real quick Baskets underneath. So he did score, he did make two out of nine and he said it made a difference in the game and of course, the foul shot. So Larry was correct in that and of course he says this this is the big one. That changed everything for him. Now he has three different stories that he said where the big one? That was one of them amazing. 

Speaker 2: 46:31

I mean the Capturing, like that sense of Indiana high school basketball. To you know, growing up in Indiana myself, there is just that community Around the the teams. That's really incredible, and I even southern Indiana, I feel like is even closer knit than it was in in northern Indiana because the schools are so small and the Towns often especially like Springs Valley are are so insulated that these guys are the Entertainment in town and so the feeling that they get from the people of the community is so you is so unique, I think I Talk about this. 

Speaker 8: 47:07

In my book I have a whole chapter on this, about the ghosts that are there, the like an iceberg, that that you're playing. When you play, you're going in a gym and people are coming in there and this is a. This is a sacred ritual that's been going on for generations and you're you're a kid, you don't know, but I felt that when I played in those old gyms I felt those ghosts. I loved old gyms. I I just like man, this it's that web, it's that. It's like I don't know how to explain it, but but anyway, I think you're exactly right. One of the things that happened when I started writing the book, was it? So it starts out being about Larry Burton ends up being about Indiana basketball as being communal. Not just Larry, but all the people that made that, helped make Larry great and and also put on that suit and also had those coaches and also learned about manly kinds of things, adult kinds of things, playing basketball. So that was interesting. I didn't see that coming, that I would end up interviewing these people. So when you read the book, it's going to be everybody's story. You know Larry's the main part of it, but all these other guys I interviewed and and and Saw on the paper and wrote about, are going to be a part of the picture too, because Larry couldn't have been, couldn't have been what he was if he hadn't had that competition. And I think this comes from watching all those clips. So you watch a clip of anybody their best games and their best moves and you think, my gosh, they're a machine. But if you watch a game I remember watching Larry's I had a video that had Larry's best games and it had one of his games this last year that he played and he was, you could tell it was struggling. So I'm watching this game. I think they're playing the trailblazers and they were the team to beat in those days and Larry wasn't doing very good. It's missing shots, he's making mistakes. I thought why are they having this head? But why, why this game? But I start watching. I think, gosh, he's just grinded, he's not quitting, he misses one. He comes back now he makes one. He just grinds and grinds and grinds and by the end of the game he makes the shot. Somehow. That puts him into overtime and then he makes the shot that wins the game and he ends up scoring 40 points. And there was surely were some clips from that, but that's what you need to remember. I think with with Larry, that Larry lost games in high school and and there were guys that that Out scored him in games, especially back then. You had the Kurt Gale strap or Orleans that that was went to the University of Louisville and ended up didn't like big school. Came to Oakland City and was the best player probably we've ever had there. You had the Mike Ligars who went to DePaul and set scoring all the scoring records there at Jasper. You had Tim U Bank who played, was a captain of the Purdue football team. It was 6-8 there. At Payoli he gave Larry Fitz and Dave Smith who went to Louisville and ended up playing all four years there played at Milltown. So Larry had some great competition, okay, and it made him better. It made him better and you know again, he they didn't win every game. In fact, the best Record that Jim Jones had was when Larry was a junior and when Steve Land was the main player. Yeah, they were 18 and 2 and and there's a whole chapter in the book about this. I call it the lost season because they were 18 and 2 and they they lost to Legoti. That was that Wayne flick not to see land down a layup that made the difference in the game there. And good old Wayne and Beezer had a shot at the end of that game and the little courier I got this from the sports writer there he said that shot went up and it went down, it was spinning and it went down way down in that spinning and it came back up and went that down and came back up about three times there was going and it's spelled out. So those, those are great games and of course, imagine sports writer having fun with that. Larry. Larry was his second leading Score on that team. They went 18 and 2 and they didn't win the conference. And then they got beat in the first game of the sectional and not said they would have went easy in the turning the next year. All Steve Land's records that were all blown apart by Larry and he and then I got up chapter called the last Black Hawk, about, about Steve. But you know they, these, these people help make him better. I think Larry's team they were 17 and 3 with with Gary. So that junior, larry's junior, was actually a better year For the team crazy. 

Speaker 2: 51:39

Well, give us, give us one more story. I want to get you out of here, but I've had so much fun listening to this. I can't wait for this book to come out. I'll let, I'll link the blog because it's it's excellent, but I'm. This is a great like. But you see, from what I've told, you. 

Speaker 8: 51:50

You can tell that blog that I've evolved. Yes, yeah, I can. 

Speaker 2: 51:54

I can hear how it's like blowing out and I think that's interesting because it goes into kind of what we've been talking About as a theme, is like this web, like each of those is a strand that you can start to pull on and find more stories and more connections From that to really like fill out the story of Larry Bird and just basketball in southern Indiana. It's just this fascinating time capsule For for basketball in Indiana really because, like you said, it is a golden age for for sure. That's that single-class basketball, it's the sectional you know for these small schools can be like winning the state championship that you know, even going back all the way to the Hoosiers story in the 50s. 

Speaker 8: 52:35

I want. I do want to say I've got a story coming out. My last chapter of the book is I call it Larry's lost years. Okay, lost year after he left IU and before he got to Indiana State. And I went back and corrected some things and just build in some, some blanks on that. But one of the things there's going to be two articles in the Indiana basketball, a theme magazine, on this. They made a two-part story but one's a part. Northwood Institute you know, you went there right and yep and ended up not playing but you practice the whole time and then realized he'd lose his eligibility. And then about the, a IU basketball, oh yeah, that's right. But I'll tell you the picture the only picture I know of a flurry and any kind of Northwood Institute attire. I'm proud of that. Yeah, I almost do you but I, I don't say that one. No, I want to say that that'll be for me to discover. 

Speaker 2: 53:24

So that's great. So did you have another? Question no, I yeah no, if you've got one more story you want to share. And I think and that what we miss here too. 

Speaker 8: 53:35

Are all the moments that Larry. You're all the moments that Larry could have done something, that he'd still be pumping gas and French lit today. Yeah, he had so many moments where something came along and turned him or he had he made the right decision. It's just amazing. I talk about these throughout the book but in that lost year I think one of the guys that's been completely forgotten and this came to me as I was putting it together. So Larry drops out of IU after 28 days he comes back and everybody's upset. Larry talks about it and all the people write about him talk about how upset everybody was. So it was probably his uncle on his mom's side that talked him. He knew the coach there at Northwood Institute, Larry Bled, so brought Larry in and said look, Larry wants to play here, Larry. An interview I had with Larry Bled so he said Larry didn't say anything. I didn't know if he did, he was going to go. So he practiced and practiced and practiced and ended up not playing. It just wasn't for him, and I talk about why some more. And I talk about those practices. There's just some very funny and interesting stories there I don't know about, but you'll have to read the article in that one and the book. So then he quits and he gets a job working for the city and he likes it and he's making money and he buys a car. Finally, the family didn't have a car. He had to hitchhike back from French Lake and I think his uncle went up and picked him up, Mitchell, to get him. On this there's three different versions of that that people fight about. Beeser went up and got him. Kevin Mills went up and got him. So I don't know. Larry can tell you. I guess and he's not so about that time Larry's father took his life. 

Speaker 11: 55:36

Yeah. 

Speaker 8: 55:39

And Larry just had to be devastated. 

Speaker 2: 55:43

Can't imagine. Yeah. 

Speaker 8: 55:45

And he's also kind of a now twice he's quit basketball. So you know one of the college coaches. I'm sure the junior college coaches are hanging around, but I'd say the main coach is saying we couldn't make it an IU and Northwood Institute Right. 

Speaker 2: 55:59

Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Speaker 8: 56:00

He's the highest of the lowest and during all that there's an A and A A? U. Basketball was really big back then Recreational basketball, every place had industrial leagues, basketball all over the place, and so Mitchell had an AAU team and they would sponsor the state championship there at the old Emerson gym there in Mitchell, and one of the guys that played on that team was a football coach at French League, Chuck Akers. Chuck went to Larry and said Larry, come play basketball Around the tournament time. You went out and you brought in ringers. 

Speaker 2: 56:38

You know, you wrapped. 

Speaker 8: 56:39

Well, so those state tournament teams had ex-college players and NBA and all sorts of things. Larry's team had Mike Flynn on it. Steve, I'm played on too, but anyway. So Larry goes in place and he doesn't have a car, and I did an interview with a guy. One of the things I kept running into doing this work is I'd tell people what I was doing and they'd say I got a Larry Bird story. Everybody has a Larry Bird story, yet to meet somebody that doesn't have a Larry Bird story. 

Speaker 2: 57:10

I think I can dig one up out of my memory. 

Speaker 8: 57:15

So this guy in one of my classes, an Oakland city, my grade class is nice, tell him I've got a Larry Bird story, really. So he got an A for the class, by the way. But anyway, he was in junior high and his dad was over the concession stand at this A tournament in Mitchell, so it was eight teams. It was a Saturday and a Sunday. So after the first Saturday game everybody went to eat in Larry's in the car, I guess he didn't have any money, so he stayed in the gym. And so here was this little boy in his dad and that came. So what's wrong? So yeah, I'm in the car, and he said, hey, what do you want? So he goes to McDonald's, buys them all a meal and they sit around on the bench and they talk basketball, little knowing who they were sitting with. 

Speaker 2: 57:58

Amazing. 

Speaker 8: 58:00

But imagine Larry at that moment. So he plays on an AAU team that wins the state and then and this is how he gets back on Indiana State radar they play the Indiana All-Star team that supposedly had the best shooting team in their history. Ok, and Larry and the AAU team beat the All-Star team. Now I don't know if I want to get in this or not but all the narrative say that Larry was the leading scorer. Well, maybe he did Read the book. 

Speaker 2: 58:38

No, that's a great, that's a great teaser. 

Speaker 8: 58:40

Another guy that was really good there. But Larry caught the attention, obviously, that the other guy was already through. He played at Bellarmine. He was an older guy. His name was Terri Morrison from New Albany. It's people. The old timers would know him, I'm sure. But that's how Hodges and got that. 

Speaker 2: 58:59

That's great, but that fits with the Larry Bird narrative too, because he, of course, any great player ends up being a scorer. But that wasn't hit. You know, that wasn't his how he defined himself. He defined himself as an all around player doing a little bit of everything, and I think that's what made him unique. And so not even though it's interesting, it's not surprising to hear that he wasn't the leading scorer, because I'm sure he wanted to do a lot of other things. 

Speaker 8: 59:24

So there were three games to win that AAU tournament and Larry was the leading scorer, I think, against the Indian All-Stars but not in the AAU tournament. So the leading scorer in the first game scored 32 and Larry scored 30. 

Speaker 6: 59:36

Yeah. 

Speaker 8: 59:37

So in the second game the guy got 31 and Larry got 30. And then in the last game the guy got 30 and Larry got 16. So Larry was in there, you know, popping away, and he was the leading scorer in the game with the All-Stars. The other interesting thing I ran into there and reading about that is so I was reading this newspaper article praising Larry, but one guy said the big play of the game wasn't Larry Bird, it was Sam Drummer. Does that ring a bell? I don't know that name. No, saddest story in Indiana High School basketball history. Sam Drummer was a player from Muncie Central and he played on the All-Star team. He should have been Mr basketball, but it was Kyle Macy that year. So Drummer the newspaper article said Drummer made a dunk on Larry. That was over Larry. I mean jumped over Larry, larry over Larry. So I was at this meeting in Hunting Bird called Legends, where all the Hall of Fame guys come to every year, and there was a guy there that had played at Georgia Tech or coached at Georgia Tech and I mentioned Sam Drummer in this story and he said yeah, because Sam ended up playing at Georgia Tech, and he said Sam made a dunk. He said I can't describe it to you. He went up in the air and he's at one hand and it was behind his back, and the other hand, somehow, he said I've never seen anything like it, but Sam. Drummer went back to. He was drafted and didn't make it. He went back to Muncie and he ended up dying, actually murdered in a, I think in a drug. 

Speaker 2: 1:01:11

Crazy yeah Tragedy there. Yeah, that's that. Well, larry was always better at getting wide, like you, rather than going vertical. Yeah. 

Speaker 8: 1:01:19

Well, you know, larry could jump too, he could, you know. So I'm looking up all these pictures for this, helping some people, this museum thing they're putting together and they've got all these young kids. They had pictures of Mark Bird. They thought were Larry, bad, bad. So they really liked that. I'm helping them out, Especially with the same number. And after Larry got drafted by Boston, I found an article where a guy was describing how big Larry was. We forget how big Larry was, but he's similar to Sam, he's similar to pictures when he's coming out addressing him. Yeah, he's got big thighs, he's got a big butt. I mean, he's just muscular and massive. He's massive and the guy's talking about his cover like hands. So I just found I can send it to you. Somebody sent me a picture today of him holding a basketball and you and Holy cow. He's got these huge hands I think all the great athletes probably had. You know, I always said Julius Irvin had the biggest hands in sports, but they didn't go ahead. Gil Hodges was another guy, was famous for how large his hands were. But the great ones usually had really big, strong, strong hands. And I suspect Larry was taller than six, nine and a half to. I think they low balled it a little bit, Cause you see him in some of the pictures and some of the guys want some of the guys want to. 

Speaker 2: 1:02:30

When you get to that certain height, you kind of want to lower it a little bit so that you don't get like positioned up, like if you're over six nine you have to play center, you know. So if you can, if you can be like six, nine, six, eight, you can play small forward. 

Speaker 8: 1:02:45

Yeah, I think he does. If that's true, he did it psychologically. Yeah, you know, for just oh, he's six nine yeah, you walk out there. 

Speaker 2: 1:02:53

Yeah, you're like wait a second. Yeah, for sure. 

Speaker 8: 1:02:56

Who knows, that's just my own guessing there about that. I'm sure Larry shrimp like the rest of the fitting yeah. 

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

For sure, For sure. Thank you for joining us for this look back at the 1987 final four. Iconic Seasons is a principal podcast production. I'm your host and executive producer, Aaron Meyer. Robert was my contributor. Special thanks to all our guests for sharing their journeys. If you enjoyed this series, head over to Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts and follow the show. Make sure you leave us a rating and review. It really helps and helps others discover the show. If you're interested in a bonus episode, send us your questions via email. Our email address is hardwoodhistoryatgmailcom. Thanks again for listening. We'll be back next season with iconic seasons.